PBS News anchors and reporters have brought the soft soap for sob-story interviews for people losing their jobs thanks to Trump executive orders and Musk-driven budget cuts, without any ideological labels attached to their designated victims (see: transgender Navy Pilot Emily Shilling). Yet the rare conservative who appears on the News Hour is almost guaranteed to get smacked with at least on warning label (see: former Trump official Chad Wolf).

So no surprise that it was a barn-burner of an “On Democracy” interview that aired Thursday evening between co-anchor Amna Nawaz and Daily Wire host and conservative activist Michael Knowles, with Nawaz coming loaded for bear to berate Knowles. No soft soap here. She was especially ruthless and unreasonable in challenging something Knowles said about transgenderism at the Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC) gathering from two years ago.

Amna Nawaz: During its first month, the Trump administration has brought dramatic proposals and unprecedented changes to the government, including a sweeping effort to remake the executive branch. Our new series “On Democracy” is taking a step back to look at big questions about laws, institutions, and norms that have shaped America and the challenges they face today. Conservative commentator Michael Knowles is the host of “The Michael Knowles Show” on The Daily Wire, and he joins us now….

After a few information gathering questions (“Are they seeing what they voted for?…What does it mean to be a conservative today?”), Nawaz’s hostility to her guest began to boil up.

Nawaz: What about this idea of checks and balances in a democratic system? This is where we hear a lot of concern from people who track democracy here, because the other two branches of government seem to have been weakened under President Trump. He’s usurped constitutional congressional authority, right…

Knowles: Has he? I don’t think he has.

Nawaz: … by blocking funds that were appropriated by Congress. He’s essentially said that they don’t have to comply by judicial rulings that they disagree with. I mean, how is that a democracy?

She soon returned to the subject:

Nawaz: …does it worry you if he’s ignoring judicial rulings?

Knowles: As you just say, we have a system of checks and balances. We do not have a system, or at least we should not have a system of judicial supremacy. The judiciary is a co-equal branch of government with the legislature and with the executive branch.

Nawaz: So, the executive has the right to ignore a judicial ruling?

Ask Joe Biden, who bragged that not even the Supreme Court could stop him from ordering debt relief for college students

The sparks really flew when Nawaz addressed comments from Knowles’ appearance at CPAC in 2023 (and which she also misinterpreted at the time):  “…transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely.”

Nawaz: You mentioned you think there was a lot of progressive overreach that helped propel President Trump back into the White House. And specific to that, you have called transgenderism, in particular, one of those issues that you think moved people and moved the needle. You have also said previously that it should be eradicated from public life entirely. And when you were asked about that, you said that you were calling for an end to the ideology, not for an end to the people.

Knowles: Yes.

Nawaz: If you have changed your view at all, please let me know. But I will confess, I don’t know what the difference is when articulated like that. So could you explain it?

Knowles returned serve with a good analogy (Click “Expand”).

Knowles: Sure. If I say that I want to eradicate poverty, I’m not saying that I want to eradicate all the poor people. Quite the opposite. I would like to help the poor people by eradicating poverty. And so when I made my comments at CPAC a couple years ago, I have now repeated it so many times, I think I have it memorized. I said, for the good of society, and especially for the good of the poor people who have fallen prey to this confusion, transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely, the whole preposterous ideology, at every level….

Nawaz: I will say, as a — you’re saying that it’s reality. This it is a belief system that you hold. I mean, transgenderism is something that has been acknowledged by medical professionals. There’s an entire body…

Knowles: And rejected by medical professionals.

Nawaz: By a few.

Knowles: Dr. Paul McHugh, who pioneered the …

Nawaz: There’s an entire body of scientific and medical knowledge that backs this up. And that’s what gender-affirming care has all been based on in recent years.

Knowles: Not really. Not really.

Nawaz: I will just ask you this, though. We’re talking about 1 percent of the U.S. adult population here.

Knowles: Thirty percent of Gen Z self-identifies as LGBT.

Nawaz: Because more people, experts believe, are comfortable coming out and sharing the identity.

Knowles: Or because it’s a social contagion.

A huffy, aggrieved Nawaz tried to warp Knowles’ reasonable point into something ridiculous, and his sharp responses seemed to frustrate her. Note: This confrontational approach never transpires when PBS is interviewing a liberal.

Nawaz: You believe transgender people make other people transgender? Is that what you’re saying?

Knowles: This is also backed up in the medical literature. There was a study in 2018 that showed that school children who are socializing with people who identify as transgender are much more likely to identify as transgender themselves.

Nawaz: Michael, you realize this is the same argument people made about gay people, right?

Knowles: Well, I’m talking about the whole LGBT ideology. So I suppose, in some ways, I’m making that argument myself.

Nawaz: You don’t believe that gay people exist?

Knowles: Say it again?

Amna Nawaz: You don’t believe gay people exist?

Knowles: Well, I think people have same-sex attractions and all of that. But I suppose the question I would have to ask is…

Nawaz: But that is — no, no, in answer to my question, do you believe that gay people exist?

Knowles: I think some people are attracted to members of the same-sex, yes.

Nawaz: Those would be gay people, correct?

Knowles: Well, I don’t think that one’s sexual desires necessarily define one’s identity.

This angry, anti-conservative interview was brought to you in part by Cunard.

A transcript is available, click “Expand.”

PBS News Hour

2/20/25

7:35:08 p.m. (ET)

Amna Nawaz: During its first month, the Trump administration has brought dramatic proposals and unprecedented changes to the government, including a sweeping effort to remake the executive branch.

Our new series On Democracy is taking a step back to look at big questions about laws, institutions, and norms that have shaped America and the challenges they face today.

Conservative commentator Michael Knowles is the host of “The Michael Knowles Show” on The Daily Wire, and he joins us now. Welcome to the “News Hour.” Thanks for being here.

Michael Knowles, Host, “The Michael Knowles Show”: Thank you so much for having me. It’s an honor to be here.

Amna Nawaz: So you’re in town to attend CPAC, right, the largest conservative gathering in America.

What are you hearing from people attending there, from people in your audience as well about this first month of the Trump presidency? Are people — are they seeing what they voted for?

Michael Knowles: Very much so.

This year it feels different even than it did in 2016-2017. And I think it’s because, this time, Trump won the popular vote. And I think it’s because of this new voter coalition, bringing over a lot of voters who previously had long voted for Democrats.

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Michael Knowles: It feels as though the realm of public discourse and the political imagination has really opened up.

Amna Nawaz: When you look at the conservative part of the party, conservative movement, if you will, I mean, beyond Donald Trump, who’s a rallying figure for everyone, what is it right now that sort of — what’s the tie that binds? What does it mean to be a conservative today?

Michael Knowles: You know, if you get 100 conservatives into a room, you will get 100 different answers of what it means to be a conservative.

The only way that you can get Kennedy Democrats and one in five Black male voters and 46 percent of Hispanics and even 40 percent of women under the age of 30…

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Michael Knowles: … to come over and vote for Trump, to even just join a coalition altogether, is to appeal to something that is deeper than political ideology.

And I think that’s what Trump has done.

Amna Nawaz: What is that? What’s he appealing to?

Michael Knowles: When President Trump comes out and he says, look, we’re going to take care of Americans first, we’re going to enforce the law, kick out the gangsters, classify the cartels as foreign terrorist organizations, which allows us to take them on more directly, this is basic stuff that you don’t need to be some bow-tie-wearing conservative to agree with.

This — that cuts across party lines.

Amna Nawaz: So, low immigration is one of the binding factors?

Michael Knowles: Well, just reducing — it’s nothing against the immigrants.

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Michael Knowles: It just that we have the highest foreign-born percentage of the population ever, and Americans of all races, all geographies, all backgrounds seem to think it’s time to assimilate people and to reduce that.

Or you notice, on the LGBT issues, which were a big issue in November…

Amna Nawaz: Yes.

Michael Knowles: … I think a lot of people, no animus, no desire to offend or exclude anybody, but they think this ideology has gone a bit too far.

Amna Nawaz: I want to ask you about President Trump’s first month in office and some of the behavior we have seen from him.

He did recently quote Napoleon, which raised some eyebrows, right? He said, “He who saves his country does not violate any law.” He compared himself to a monarch, saying, “Long live the king.”

Does that worry you, that kind of language? I mean, do you want to see a king-like president?

Michael Knowles: It doesn’t worry me at all.

To make a comparison with Napoleon, I think there’s a little wink and a nod here from Trump. He makes plenty of jokes. But the broader political point…

Amna Nawaz: But this is a joke or this is serious?

Michael Knowles: Well, I think he uses winsome and whimsical language.

But this line from Napoleon, which is a rearticulation of Cicero and John Locke, two very important thinkers for the American founders and framers, this just gets to a basic point about the country, which is that, in times of great national crisis and distress, extraordinary measures can be taken.

You saw this with Abraham Lincoln. You saw this with Franklin Roosevelt. You have seen this with plenty of American presidents, George Washington, for that matter.

Amna Nawaz: Extraordinary measures meaning a stronger executive?

Michael Knowles: Well, an executive that wields power in a just and effective way.

Amna Nawaz: What about this idea of checks and balances in a democratic system? This is where we hear a lot of concern from people who track democracy here, because the other two branches of government seem to have been weakened under President Trump.

He’s usurped constitutional congressional authority, right…

Michael Knowles: Has he? I don’t think he has.

Amna Nawaz: … by blocking funds that were appropriated by Congress. He’s essentially said that they don’t have to comply by judicial rulings that they disagree with.

I mean, how is that a democracy?

Michael Knowles: Oh, well, first of all, the majority of Americans voted for Trump. So that would seem to be in itself a good expression of democracy.

Amna Nawaz: Well, most people voted for him, but he didn’t win a majority. I take your point

Michael Knowles: He — most voters. He won the majority of voters.

And — but then, when we’re talking about something like executive funding, the president has a large prerogative to control that kind of funding. Some people are suggesting that Trump’s cleanup of the executive branch is unprecedented. That is simply not true.

This is a more-than-100-year-old precedent. Woodrow Wilson established by executive action the Bureau of Efficiency. It’s almost the same name as Elon Musk’s DOGE.

Amna Nawaz: Well, to bring it back to 2025, I mean, there are rulings that say he needs to unblock some of the funds that he’s frozen, and that the administration has not complied.

Does it worry you if he’s ignoring judicial rulings?

Michael Knowles: Well, we — as you just say, we have a system of checks and balances. We do not have a system, or at least we should not have a system of judicial supremacy.

The judiciary is a co-equal branch of government with the legislature and with the executive branch.

Amna Nawaz: So, the executive has the right to ignore a judicial ruling?

Michael Knowles: The executive has the right to fight judicial rulings when they are overstepping.

And, in this case, the notion that the judiciary can by fiat undermine the president’s legitimate authority to control the executive branch, to me, is crazy. I mean, even when you think about some of that executive authority, how much of that authority was usurped, certainly not by Trump, but even by recent presidents, many of whom were Democrats?

And how much of that authority was delegated by the Congress to the executive branch? One might argue that that was not a good idea, that Congress should do more lawmaking and not give it away to bureaucrats. But the Congress certainly has done that.

And so I don’t know. To argue that Trump is an authoritarian because he is trying to reduce the size and scope of the executive branch in the federal government, to me, is crazy.

Amna Nawaz: You mentioned you think there was a lot of progressive overreach that helped propel President Trump back into the White House

And specific to that, you have called transgenderism, in particular, one of those issues that you think moved people and moved the needle. You have also said previously that it should be eradicated from public life entirely. And when you were asked about that, you said that you were calling for an end to the ideology, not for an end to the people.

Michael Knowles: Yes

Amna Nawaz: If you have changed your view at all, please let me know. So could you explain it?

Michael Knowles: Sure.

If I say that I want to eradicate poverty, I’m not saying that I want to eradicate all the poor people. Quite the opposite. I would like to help the poor people by eradicating poverty. And so when I made my comments at CPAC a couple years ago, I have now repeated it so many times, I think I haven’t memorized.

I said, for the good of society, and especially for the good of the poor people who have fallen prey to this confusion, transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely, the whole preposterous ideology, at every level.

And the reason for this, the reason why I would say, in particular for those who have fallen prey to the ideology, that we ought to do that, is because men can’t really become women. That’s not how human nature works. I have a great deal of sympathy for people who are confused about their sex. But I don’t think it helps people to lie to them.

So, just as a matter of public life, I think we need to respect reality.

Amna Nawaz: I will say, as a — you’re saying that it’s reality. This it is a belief system that you hold. I mean, transgenderism is something that has been acknowledged by medical professionals. There’s an entire body…

Michael Knowles: And rejected by medical professionals.

Amna Nawaz: By a few.

Michael Knowles: Dr. Paul McHugh, who pioneered the …

Amna Nawaz: There’s an entire body of scientific and medical knowledge that backs this up. And that’s what gender-affirming care has all been based on in recent years.

Michael Knowles: Not really. Not really.

Amna Nawaz: I will just ask you this, though. We’re talking about 1 percent of the U.S. adult population here.

Michael Knowles: Thirty percent of Gen Z self-identifies as LGBT.

Amna Nawaz: Because more people, experts believe, are comfortable coming out and sharing the identity.

Michael Knowles: Or because it’s a social contagion.

Amna Nawaz: You believe transgender people make other people transgender? Is that what you’re saying?

Michael Knowles: This is also backed up in the medical literature. There was a study in 2018 that showed that school children who are socializing with people who identify as transgender are much more likely to identify as transgender themselves

Amna Nawaz: Michael, you realize this is the same argument people made about gay people, right?

Michael Knowles: Well, I’m talking about the whole LGBT ideology. So I suppose, in some ways, I’m making that argument myself.

Amna Nawaz: You don’t believe that gay people exist?

Michael Knowles: Say it again.

Amna Nawaz: You don’t believe gay people exist?

Michael Knowles: Well, I think people have same-sex attractions and all of that.

But I suppose the question I would have to ask is…

Amna Nawaz: But that is — no, no, in answer to my question, do you believe that gay people exist?

Michael Knowles: I think some people are attracted to members of the same-sex, yes.

Amna Nawaz: Those would be gay people, correct?

Michael Knowles: Well, I don’t think that one’s sexual desires necessarily define one’s identity.

Amna Nawaz: Without getting into a semantic back-and-forth about it, in clarifying what you have said, when you use words like eradicate — I’m just asking about in terms of the language here.

Michael Knowles: Yes, yes.

Amna Nawaz: When you use words like eradicate…

Michael Knowles: Well, you know what the word eradicate means.

Amna Nawaz: … do you worry that puts a target on people’s backs?

Michael Knowles: Certainly not. In fact the only targets that I have had on my own back are when I question these kinds of ideologies that have been so terrible for people.

The only times I have ever been attacked in public — in one case, someone who’s in federal prison for trying to blow me up at a speech in Pittsburgh — is because I dared to question the trans ideology. People are being introduced to this ideology at younger and younger ages.

It can lead to horrific outcomes, especially for younger people put on puberty blockers, which often cannot be reversed. It leads to castration, bone problems, and early death. These are not the sort of things that we should wish for people if we wish for their own good.

And so what it really comes down to is whether or not a man can become a woman or a man can secretly be a woman if he appears to be a man. And my contention is, that just isn’t how human nature works.

Amna Nawaz: I’m just going to clarify. You did say it’s your contention. I would encourage people to go check out the research and studies on their own.

I do want to ask you about this political moment we’re in now, though, because when you look at our democratic system, there is undoubtedly an ascendant conservative movement right now. It’s worth pointing out, though, that the party tends to push out anyone who disagrees with President Trump.

Mitch McConnell seems to be the latest example now, right, only really speaking out against President Trump when he says that he’s not running for reelection.

Does it worry you about the future of the party that the coalition doesn’t seem to hold without Donald Trump?

Michael Knowles: Trump is the unifying figure right now. There’s no question about it.

Now, what’s unusual about it is to say that people are kicked out of the party when they disagree with Trump makes it sound like the party is shrinking. But what we saw in 2024 is, actually, the party is growing. It’s just taking in new people. And it’s losing some of the figures who have been members in the past, like Liz Cheney or Adam Kinzinger, or those kinds of figures.

Amna Nawaz: People who disagreed with President Trump, right?

Michael Knowles: Correct. Yes, yes.

That means that there’s a new coalition that has formed. Trump is the singular figure. He is a magnetic personality. He is an American original, and I think he’s a genius-level politician.

Amna Nawaz: So does the coalition hold without him?

Michael Knowles: That remains to be seen.

I don’t think there’s really going any going back to Bushism. And if anyone can pick up the standard of Trumpism afterwards, we will have to wait and see. But the Republican Party is a different and stronger thing now because of Donald Trump.

Amna Nawaz: Michael Knowles, host of “The Michael Knowles Show” on The Daily Wire, thank you for being here. Appreciate your time.

Michael Knowles: Thank you for having me.